Quite right. I can see times when it's needed, and I certainly fall into a rather steamy tirade in real life, but in writing ... a very different kettle of fish, as the saying goes.
Honestly, excessive profanity makes me close the book. I am inclined towards more traditional aesthetics, so most books published after 1962 (the year Faulkner died) do not appeal to me. If there are too many f-bombs in a mere 20-pages, I know the novel will become tedious to me. Sometimes, I think it is a matter of 'just because you can, doesn't mean you should'. Hemingway portrayed soldiers, sailors, everyday-men, without needing to use profanity (he couldn't, as it was unacceptable in his time)--however, I think that we should see an opportunity to be more creative by 'censoring ourselves'. I think Hemingway actually preserved the Stoic and sparse quality of his prose by removing profanity therefrom. There are more clever ways to express horrific things without being explicit. Say something by not saying it. etc.
Well said. I think of it like the movie censors in Hollywood, keeping things from getting unnecessarily "racy". Tossing in a bunch of nudity was sloppy film-making. tossing in a bunch of profanity is sloppy or lazy writing. There are times when strings of "salty language" is appropriate such as when the characters would normally speak that way. But then the reader choosing that book, story, etc., would expect that language. Otherwise, I would encourage writers to be more creative.
I just came across this from last December. I want to say right now, that people swear. A lot. My wife swears like a trucker, and so do I as a result. She's the manager of a Gov't liquor store up here in BC. I don't have a problem with profanity. I drop "f-bombs" because that's the way I am. I never used to swear when I was younger and in mixed company. And then I realized that the girls in the crowd I hung out with, swore more than I did. I was raised not to swear in mixed company. It took me some time before I was able to swear along side them. Does that mean those women that swore were somehow "less" than others? Oh pu-lease! I call it "Industrial Language".
Not everybody swears, and some find it offensive. I don't have a problem with that either. When I started at the mill, I hardly swore at all. There was a guy there I worked with, and every other word he used was "F" this and "F" that. I asked him why he swore so much. He looked at me over his milk and smiled. He was 23, and I was 19. He put his hands out about a foot and a half apart, and said: "I went fishing last week, and caught a fish this big. Doesn't sound very big, does it? But you can see it is. If I say to you: 'I went fishing last week and caught a fish this fuckin' big.' You're going to say to yourself, that's really big, because it fuckin' is."
"The 7 Bad Words You Can't Say On Television." Ever heard of it? It's a comedy bit by George Carlin off his album Class Clown. Priceless.
I swear. And sometimes my characters swear. My characters have sex, too. Have you never heard of the expression, "Talk dirty to me?" Sometimes my characters do that, too. Is that offensive? I don't think so. If you do, that's your issue. People use vulgarities. Teenagers use vulgarities; 'Suits' use vulgarities. It's not a sign of ignorance or low social status, it's just the way it is, and has been, for centuries. That doesn't mean my writing is full of profanity, it's not. But I'm not afraid to use it. I will not hesitate to use it. It doesn't make the writing gritty, it makes it real.
You don't have to swear to get your point across, but in dialogue, if one character uses it and another doesn't, you can mention the point and add a few more layers of depth to your story. I don't swear in front of children, and if I'm in a social situation and no one else is swearing, I don't either...but my wife will. If you call her on it, she'll tell you to grow a pair and don't be a prude; you'll get over it. And she's right.
I swear like a sailor at times, but for some reason, it seems cheap and a bit lazy in literature. There have to be better ways to express what your characters are feeling. The occasional "Damn!" or even stronger invectives are certainly appropriate. But then, a lot depends on the audience for which you're writing. Anyway, your text. Do as you like, and thanks for taking time to post this lengthy comment. Best wishes!
you left out one significant reason. When it's a characterization thing. Troops in combat, Cops speaking to each other, (especially in the aftermath of a "significant incident") Hell, troops in barracks... all use far more profanity than the average citizen, as do folks like Biker gang members and lower class criminals. A lower class hood rat from the barrio enunciating the kings English like a College prof would be enough for me to "wall" a book. (I am a retired sailor, and a retired cop as well as an author.)
Oooh! Excellent point. Thanks for the comment. I don't hang around with people in these professions or situations, so it slipped my mind. And great point about the level of English a character is using, something I addressed here: https://accargillauthor.substack.com/p/speaking-literarily
Quite. My writing is usually military or police adjacent, I have an urban fantasy series with a former SEAL Park Police Officer, and another series I'm starting that is space opera, some shorts that are space exploration SF, and I write from that perspective. I think the article you reference covers it perfectly if a bit long winded.
Long winded? Hee! Well, I was covering a complex topic. Anyway, a good point here is that if someone is reading books in such settings, they'll expect a bit more "salt" in the language. Recently, though, I tried to read a book where every other word was "salty". I skimmed through and saw that the entire book was that way, so, as you put it, I "walled" the book (sent it back to the public library).
you were indeed covering a complex topic, and as my blog posts show, I'm really not one to talk much about "long winded." I think in this case, the issue for me was a "preaching to the choir" piece. You're writing for everyone, at any stage in the learning process, and a lot of that article was review at best for me.
Profanity works in modern setting stories, sci-fi (such as Starcraft) or tv shows but not in I would argue fantasy as it is set in a kind of operatic mythological setting.
Si this is a very interesting article, and one I'd encourage every writer to read and check out. I myself do not like curses in my fiction but that's just me.
First to say that I am not a writer; but I am writing all the time. For me, writers are those few people that can turn over thoughts and ideas in their mind (and on their paper), such that thinking can evolve. For me, all other "non-writers" are recyclers, sloganeers, and captains of borrowed thought. What is original? The whole world is fighting over someone else's thoughts, ideologies, religions. It is all laid out for you to mindlessly adopt.
I never have written a novel nor developed a character, that is, until I started operating with a few aliases. Each alias has his favorite subjects, and each can have his own personality. (One time I made a female alias, but later I thought that I couldn't pull it off.)
With his own character and personality, each alias has his own language, and connects with his own readership. I think you authors can relate to what I will say next, the biggest breakthrough in life; really: I DISCOVERED THAT "I" AM ALSO AN ALIAS. But up until now, I have not been the author of that alias. Ever since that moment, I have NO trouble to moderate my behavior, on all fronts.
In some places above you say "spicy" or "heat", or the "expression of strong emotion," as if to say, oh, isn't that cute? Or, even, this is just a gimmick, you’re sticking it in solely for the shock effect. Is this the normal on-the-ground, that we have to relate to our readership with?
REALLY; all profanity is one thing only.
**It is the attempt to characterize other people as a part of your judgments and condemnation. **
It is pure chauvinism. Who really cares about your 'little judgements"? Only those, your cronies, that share the same judgments, and compete to make even stronger and more pointed characterizations. Chauvinism is a very poor word in English. It has the connotation of, maybe, a little too much patriotism. But really it means that “I” am better, and more deserving that you are. It is at the root of every injustice. (For-Ever).
Soldiers have a right to swear, but they should be swearing at their own politicians that put them into this killing feast. (And of course, the billionaires that put the politicians up to it.) Do you think that you are going to improve the world situation by characterizing all those whom you oppose? Good luck. Here we are; and it is here where profanity has led us. Next stop on the elevator, "GOING DOWN PLEASE".
So as a writer, are you building more idiocy or are you going to stand up against it? The simplest division in the world is the "system", and the "anti-system". Those that seek to build something, and those that seek to destroy everything. There are even religions promoting both those factions.
Have fun, I guess. And just try to sell something, - anything?
Why would I read your book? Is it that I have nothing else to do? You would have to "blow-me-over" with something that I never thought about before. And maybe if I acted upon it, it could change my life. (I already did this. I said you can be the author of your own life, and experiment with any facet of life or your relationships that you choose.) There is no how-to about that. You Just Do-It, because your word is your power and your bond, (to yourself).
For those reasons, I like sociology and anthropology. Some people study society to know what are real problems of real people in real locations and in real time. Only with this understanding can you be armed to do something about it. A Period Novel can be a good grounding too, to know what was life really like in those times.
Profanity is too often a substitute for creativity.
Quite right. I can see times when it's needed, and I certainly fall into a rather steamy tirade in real life, but in writing ... a very different kettle of fish, as the saying goes.
Honestly, excessive profanity makes me close the book. I am inclined towards more traditional aesthetics, so most books published after 1962 (the year Faulkner died) do not appeal to me. If there are too many f-bombs in a mere 20-pages, I know the novel will become tedious to me. Sometimes, I think it is a matter of 'just because you can, doesn't mean you should'. Hemingway portrayed soldiers, sailors, everyday-men, without needing to use profanity (he couldn't, as it was unacceptable in his time)--however, I think that we should see an opportunity to be more creative by 'censoring ourselves'. I think Hemingway actually preserved the Stoic and sparse quality of his prose by removing profanity therefrom. There are more clever ways to express horrific things without being explicit. Say something by not saying it. etc.
Well said. I think of it like the movie censors in Hollywood, keeping things from getting unnecessarily "racy". Tossing in a bunch of nudity was sloppy film-making. tossing in a bunch of profanity is sloppy or lazy writing. There are times when strings of "salty language" is appropriate such as when the characters would normally speak that way. But then the reader choosing that book, story, etc., would expect that language. Otherwise, I would encourage writers to be more creative.
In defence of profanity...
I just came across this from last December. I want to say right now, that people swear. A lot. My wife swears like a trucker, and so do I as a result. She's the manager of a Gov't liquor store up here in BC. I don't have a problem with profanity. I drop "f-bombs" because that's the way I am. I never used to swear when I was younger and in mixed company. And then I realized that the girls in the crowd I hung out with, swore more than I did. I was raised not to swear in mixed company. It took me some time before I was able to swear along side them. Does that mean those women that swore were somehow "less" than others? Oh pu-lease! I call it "Industrial Language".
Not everybody swears, and some find it offensive. I don't have a problem with that either. When I started at the mill, I hardly swore at all. There was a guy there I worked with, and every other word he used was "F" this and "F" that. I asked him why he swore so much. He looked at me over his milk and smiled. He was 23, and I was 19. He put his hands out about a foot and a half apart, and said: "I went fishing last week, and caught a fish this big. Doesn't sound very big, does it? But you can see it is. If I say to you: 'I went fishing last week and caught a fish this fuckin' big.' You're going to say to yourself, that's really big, because it fuckin' is."
"The 7 Bad Words You Can't Say On Television." Ever heard of it? It's a comedy bit by George Carlin off his album Class Clown. Priceless.
I swear. And sometimes my characters swear. My characters have sex, too. Have you never heard of the expression, "Talk dirty to me?" Sometimes my characters do that, too. Is that offensive? I don't think so. If you do, that's your issue. People use vulgarities. Teenagers use vulgarities; 'Suits' use vulgarities. It's not a sign of ignorance or low social status, it's just the way it is, and has been, for centuries. That doesn't mean my writing is full of profanity, it's not. But I'm not afraid to use it. I will not hesitate to use it. It doesn't make the writing gritty, it makes it real.
You don't have to swear to get your point across, but in dialogue, if one character uses it and another doesn't, you can mention the point and add a few more layers of depth to your story. I don't swear in front of children, and if I'm in a social situation and no one else is swearing, I don't either...but my wife will. If you call her on it, she'll tell you to grow a pair and don't be a prude; you'll get over it. And she's right.
I swear like a sailor at times, but for some reason, it seems cheap and a bit lazy in literature. There have to be better ways to express what your characters are feeling. The occasional "Damn!" or even stronger invectives are certainly appropriate. But then, a lot depends on the audience for which you're writing. Anyway, your text. Do as you like, and thanks for taking time to post this lengthy comment. Best wishes!
you left out one significant reason. When it's a characterization thing. Troops in combat, Cops speaking to each other, (especially in the aftermath of a "significant incident") Hell, troops in barracks... all use far more profanity than the average citizen, as do folks like Biker gang members and lower class criminals. A lower class hood rat from the barrio enunciating the kings English like a College prof would be enough for me to "wall" a book. (I am a retired sailor, and a retired cop as well as an author.)
Oooh! Excellent point. Thanks for the comment. I don't hang around with people in these professions or situations, so it slipped my mind. And great point about the level of English a character is using, something I addressed here: https://accargillauthor.substack.com/p/speaking-literarily
Quite. My writing is usually military or police adjacent, I have an urban fantasy series with a former SEAL Park Police Officer, and another series I'm starting that is space opera, some shorts that are space exploration SF, and I write from that perspective. I think the article you reference covers it perfectly if a bit long winded.
Long winded? Hee! Well, I was covering a complex topic. Anyway, a good point here is that if someone is reading books in such settings, they'll expect a bit more "salt" in the language. Recently, though, I tried to read a book where every other word was "salty". I skimmed through and saw that the entire book was that way, so, as you put it, I "walled" the book (sent it back to the public library).
you were indeed covering a complex topic, and as my blog posts show, I'm really not one to talk much about "long winded." I think in this case, the issue for me was a "preaching to the choir" piece. You're writing for everyone, at any stage in the learning process, and a lot of that article was review at best for me.
Yeah, I have to keep things basic. Thanks for joining in the process, though, of helping newbie writers get going and improve.
I don't use profanity because I feel that it's too easy. I want to challenge myself.
Profanity works in modern setting stories, sci-fi (such as Starcraft) or tv shows but not in I would argue fantasy as it is set in a kind of operatic mythological setting.
Si this is a very interesting article, and one I'd encourage every writer to read and check out. I myself do not like curses in my fiction but that's just me.
I'm glad I write Middle-Grade and don't need to consider this question!
First to say that I am not a writer; but I am writing all the time. For me, writers are those few people that can turn over thoughts and ideas in their mind (and on their paper), such that thinking can evolve. For me, all other "non-writers" are recyclers, sloganeers, and captains of borrowed thought. What is original? The whole world is fighting over someone else's thoughts, ideologies, religions. It is all laid out for you to mindlessly adopt.
I never have written a novel nor developed a character, that is, until I started operating with a few aliases. Each alias has his favorite subjects, and each can have his own personality. (One time I made a female alias, but later I thought that I couldn't pull it off.)
With his own character and personality, each alias has his own language, and connects with his own readership. I think you authors can relate to what I will say next, the biggest breakthrough in life; really: I DISCOVERED THAT "I" AM ALSO AN ALIAS. But up until now, I have not been the author of that alias. Ever since that moment, I have NO trouble to moderate my behavior, on all fronts.
In some places above you say "spicy" or "heat", or the "expression of strong emotion," as if to say, oh, isn't that cute? Or, even, this is just a gimmick, you’re sticking it in solely for the shock effect. Is this the normal on-the-ground, that we have to relate to our readership with?
REALLY; all profanity is one thing only.
**It is the attempt to characterize other people as a part of your judgments and condemnation. **
It is pure chauvinism. Who really cares about your 'little judgements"? Only those, your cronies, that share the same judgments, and compete to make even stronger and more pointed characterizations. Chauvinism is a very poor word in English. It has the connotation of, maybe, a little too much patriotism. But really it means that “I” am better, and more deserving that you are. It is at the root of every injustice. (For-Ever).
Soldiers have a right to swear, but they should be swearing at their own politicians that put them into this killing feast. (And of course, the billionaires that put the politicians up to it.) Do you think that you are going to improve the world situation by characterizing all those whom you oppose? Good luck. Here we are; and it is here where profanity has led us. Next stop on the elevator, "GOING DOWN PLEASE".
So as a writer, are you building more idiocy or are you going to stand up against it? The simplest division in the world is the "system", and the "anti-system". Those that seek to build something, and those that seek to destroy everything. There are even religions promoting both those factions.
Have fun, I guess. And just try to sell something, - anything?
Why would I read your book? Is it that I have nothing else to do? You would have to "blow-me-over" with something that I never thought about before. And maybe if I acted upon it, it could change my life. (I already did this. I said you can be the author of your own life, and experiment with any facet of life or your relationships that you choose.) There is no how-to about that. You Just Do-It, because your word is your power and your bond, (to yourself).
For those reasons, I like sociology and anthropology. Some people study society to know what are real problems of real people in real locations and in real time. Only with this understanding can you be armed to do something about it. A Period Novel can be a good grounding too, to know what was life really like in those times.
These are things I want to talk about.
.
Thanks for commenting. I support your right to bloviate.